User: throbinson Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:12 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: Kuan Yin

Hear, hear!

Personally I like the way my legs feel under pants when I keep them shaved. It's definitely a matter of my personal comfort, since I don't often wear skirts or dresses (maybe a couple of times a month?)

I like makeup too, don't always wear it but I do feel more outgoing? something, when I do.

User: neadods Date: 15 Oct 2006 00:18 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I like the way my legs feel under pants when I keep them shaved

Ditto under my skirts, and they stay that way longer when they're waxed. So I'm doing that for *me* - hell, my skirts are so long that usually nobody sees my legs in the first place!

User: mearagrrl Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:19 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Heh. And if I femme it up to attract WOMEN? What then? Dear god!

But y'know, if boys want to get into the girly thing, I'm all for it. God knows I'm all for me doing boy things when I want. :)

User: liviapenn Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:21 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

You know, I'm sure there's a lot of men who pressure their spouses or girlfriends to "look good," whether that means staying skinny, dyeing their hair, waxing or whatever-- but in my *personal* experience, I've known more women who say things like "He doesn't like me to wear too much makeup" or "He doesn't like it when I dye my hair." So, who gets more "feminist points" in this situation, the woman who complies with her man's demands and doesn't wear makeup, or the one who *gasp* wears lipstick and dyes her hair?

User: kirinqueen Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:27 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Yes, yes, and yes. Why the heck can't waxing, wearing makeup, etc. be something you do for yourself? Sure, there are women who do that for The Man, but I wager they're not the ones reading feminist writings, either.

User: cupcake_goth Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:32 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Yes, exactly. None of the makeup, hair color, or frilly clothing I'm so fiercely fond of is for the benefit of my husband, or anyone eles. It is all for me. It's just a bonus that my husband is as charmed by my wardrobe as I am.

User: cupcake_goth Date: 14 Oct 2006 22:04 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Argh. That would be "else" not "eles". New rule: no typing before coffee.

User: sartorias Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:33 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Egg-zactly. I do not do any of those things, but not for political reasons--it's because I don't want to, or don't enjoy them. I had no ojbection whatever to my daughter experimenting with make-up when she was young, getting perms, or wanting to try facials and waxings and suchlike. Some of it she still does, because she wants to, or it feels good, or she likes the way she looks, and what's wrong with that? What did we work for in the seventies if a woman cannot choose her own look or pleasures? The universally-enforced combat boots/unisex uglysuit/hairiness where one doesn't want hair is no improvement over everyone being forced into the Jackie Kennedy Look in 1960.

User: marquesate Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:44 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: Kitty Kill

I'm the only woman on the board for a project in an engineering university that is academically populated to 90% by middle aged, grey suited, grey bearded men. (as you know from my LJ ;-)

I'd never succeeded in the job if I had even been aware of patriarchy. I don't *do* patriarchy and neither do I *do* feminism. I blunder on like a steam roller and live and act in total equality. The surrondings might not think it's equality, but I do, thus they just have to go along with it.

Make-up, glittery chinese jackets, jewellery, bright red fingernails, and (once upon a recent time before the arthritis) high heeled footwear have nothing to do with it. Nothing. Neither on nor off.

I resent those "feminists" more, who tell me that I pander to the oppressor (not that anyone ever did tell me *snerk*) by doing what I want, than misogynist chaps. The later I can easily put into their doghouse place with a sneer and a smirk and being a damned brilliant professional, the first would cry "traitor!" if I told them what I thought of them.

We only have equality when we act like it. When we do what we want regardless.

User: kirinqueen Date: 14 Oct 2006 20:29 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I agree with this comment 100%.

User:	menin_aeide
Date:	14 Oct 2006 18:48 (UTC)
Subject:	(no subject)

Excellent comments.

Also -- I love my partner, and he loves me. What's wrong with liking to please each other?

User: _swallow Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:49 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Dude, I can't believe anyone is saying that with a straight face. It's so... retro.

User: _abulafia Date: 15 Oct 2006 02:43 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Dude, we have had this conversation before, but as someone who waxes, I would argue that waxing is oppressive, because it creates an unrealistic impression of what normal female body hair constitutes, and consequently it creates the expectation of universal female hairlessness. With respect, I think that this is an issue that you can't be fully intimate with until you have the experience of being taken to task for not shaving by your sixth-grade classmates, by your mother, by your grandfather, by a random (female!) mall employee -- I think it's really easy to miss out on the oppressiveness of the hair maintenance regime, and the iron-fistedness with which compliance is enforced, if you have the good fortune of being relatively hairless.

That said, I think it's abominable that anyone would call the people who wax and shave unfeminist for refusing to subject themselves to social ridicule.

User: alterjess Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:51 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Me, I just have to smile whenever I see that Laura Kipnis has caused another feminist blogosphere kerfuffle -- in college, she was the film prof that liked to show us porn. Whether or not it's feminist to wear high heels is just about the least controversial issue I associate her name with.

User: pix_kristin Date: 14 Oct 2006 18:55 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

SO in agreement with you.

I get to make myself look however I want, lady. It's not about men.

User: annaalamode Date: 14 Oct 2006 19:10 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: bowl of happiness

I found this post via friendsfriends and all I can say is WORD. I wear make-up, color my hair, wear nail polish and like high heels. This is not because I have been brainwashed by the patriarchy but because I think those things are pretty.

I hate this assumption that women are only capable of making choices if they make 'acceptable' choices. Why am I suddenly not capable of chosing because I chose to wear make-up when if I chose not to wear make up I am capable of making that choice?

Sorry, got a little ranty there.

User: aimeejmc Date: 14 Oct 2006 20:07 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: Em pointing wand

Amen to that. All of that. I went to school with a feminist who would berate and embarass a friend of mine for wanting to, eventually, stay at home with her children and be a SAHM. Wasn't isn't) the whole point of the women's movement to make sure that women could make any choices they wanted to?

User: sdn Date: 15 Oct 2006 01:36 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

thorny question. the bigger issue is this: why are women still doing most of the housework and childcare? why aren't men doing more?

User: madrobins Date: 14 Oct 2006 22:19 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Oh, good gravy, is someone hauling up that tired bit of nonsense?

I go back and forth between having my toenails done and ignoring them; between coloring my hair and not. I like makeup but most days I don't bother (I always found putting on makeup was great when I was working in an office, as it really forced me to wake up before I left the house...or have funny stripes across my forehead). Many of these grooming things I do because they permit me to do something that is self-attendent, if one can say such a thing. If I get waxed, or have my hair done, or color my hair or buy a new dress, it's something I'm doing for me; I'm giving myself permission to be the focus of my attention for a while. Which sounds pretty damned feminist to me.

Remember an old cover from Ms magazine in the 1970s: He: Did you know the feminist movement has no sense of humor? She: No, but if you hum a few bars I can fake it.

Someone needs to borrow a sense of humor.

User: jonquil Date: 15 Oct 2006 03:13 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Yup. Having a pedicure is Me Time because nobody can possibly interrupt me during it. Ditto a massage.

User: comice Date: 14 Oct 2006 22:58 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I resent anyone who tells me how I must look, act, or groom myself in order to be considered any kind of woman, but particularly those who claim to do in the name of feminism. As far as I'm concerned, feminists don't judge how other women wish to live their lives or comport themselves -- we fight for their right to do so and to be treated as all humans should be, equal in all things.

Anything else is just noise.

User: cherryredd Date: 15 Oct 2006 03:12 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I agree with this 100% What do these silly things have to do with feminism anyway?

I have my nails done, color my hair and wear makeup and high heels because *I* like those things. The fact that my husband likes them too is an extra added bonus.

User: mustangsally78 Date: 14 Oct 2006 23:28 (UTC) Subject: a woman who femmes it up is doing so to please others Keyword: me going to pee

Like the woman said, bitch, please.

A true feminist would support her sisters even in matters of nail polish.

Okay, THIS is my favorite comment. And I want it on a t-shirt. Preferably a pink one with the lettering in silver glitter.

Robin L

User: skywardprodigal Date: 15 Oct 2006 00:22 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Here here.

I wax. And I do it to please (sorta) myself. No one else really benefits from it but me and my pride. I don't die my hair. I may never do so. I think, sometimes some people would rather look at what other women are doing 'wrong' and focus on that rather than on how we can support one another and respect other women -- not just women who behave in someone's 'ideal' thinking.

User:	urban_homestead
Date:	15 Oct 2006 00:32 (UTC)
Subject:	(no subject)

Clearly I am the weakest-willed woman who reads your journal. I like my own body hair and I find body hair cute on other women. But when I am in a heterosexual relationship I feel such shame about having anything so unfeminine as body hair that I pay someone to rip it painfully out by the roots. And, possibly as a result of this, I do think that depilation is a feminist issue and that the preferable thing from a sisterhood perspective is not to wax and shave, to not perpetuate the norm that says a man's natural hair growth pattern is fine but a woman's is disgusting and shameful.

User: jonquil Date: 15 Oct 2006 00:37 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

As a Canadian, you're exempt, but as an American, there are people fighting hard, and succeeding in some areas, to limit our ability to contracept. Any American feminist who is paying any attention at all to leg-waxing is wasting valuable time.

As Urban Homestead, I still think that there are more important issues to fight for. Give yourself a pass on one acculturation and fight the ones that will change the world on a deeper level -- teach your son that Daddy does his share of the child-rearing and cleaning. None of us can fight every single piece of acculturation she's got.

As far as norms go, the norm seems to be turning that a man's natural hair growth pattern is icky. When was the last time you saw a hairy male back in a Hollywood movie? Even chests are getting rarer.

User: sdn Date: 15 Oct 2006 01:34 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Various bits of the feminist blogosphere are explaining that feminists should not wax, wear makeup, dye, &c, &c, because they're only doing it to attract men, and that any feminist who blogs about the same has forfeited her feminist card.

okay, this is stupid. please point to them so i can go there and tell them they are idiots.

in my experience, women do not "dress for men." they dress for other women. men don't give a shit.

User: jonquil Date: 15 Oct 2006 01:39 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

See above: http://jonquil.livejournal.com/491180.html?thread=5184428#t5184428

User: serenada Date: 15 Oct 2006 02:00 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: hand

One of my co-instructors was asked today how he defined girly. He didn't say anything. Just pointed at me.

I smiled, I cheered, I flexed my biceps in my powder-pink wifebeater.

In ragging on each other later in the training session I pointed out N&C and called them girly.

"I don't wear dresses and skirts and nail polish," said N.
"I don't wear pink and glitter," said C.

I shrugged. "I don't do my hair, and I'm not giggling in class."

Then we went back to beating the shit out of each other and wrestling guns away from attackers pinning us to the floor.

User: waronerror Date: 15 Oct 2006 02:03 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I feel compelled to say that at least the sites I'm reading (which may not be the sites you're reading) are NOT saying "feminists should not wax, wear makeup, etc." or that women who are doing so are doing it to attract men. What I think some of them would say--and what I would say--is that our "choices" are made in a context, and that context happens to be a patriarchy. Thus, it sometimes sounds a bit disingenous to say "I just like x," where x might equal ripping one's hair out by the roots, wearing a particular kind of clothing, binding one's feet, wearing a particular kind of adornment, etc. I think one of the difficult balances is between arguing that there is a totalizing system (like patriarchy, or capitalism, or whatever) in place and trying to find the (literal and figurative) space for agency in that. I'm unwilling to say that our choices are completely determined by the totalizing system--though I am willing to say that the choices we conceive of as available are at least limited by the totalizing system. Similarly, I'm unwilling to say that we have no agency--in which case no change would be possible--but I also think that our agency is contextualized.

What also seems to happen--IMHO--is that someone suggests that this or that practice is problematic, or part of the patriarchy for X reasons, or that s/he doesn't like this or that practice personally. Some readers--especially readers who have a stake in that practice--read that as "Noone should do that," which isn't what the original comment said at all.

Jonquil notes: "And, yes, our aesthetics are absolutely the product of the gendered cultures in which we grew up." I think many of the commenters are focusing on that aspect of the situation, and I think that's a legitimate focus. We all make compromises--and not just because it's a patriarchy. Any social system requires compromises. I do think it's useful to contemplate the particular compromises that patriarchy demands, the aesthetic that patriachy teaches, and the ways we've made our own compromises. Some may choose to eschew particular practices, but I don't think there's an Official Memo pre/proscribing particular practices. Or, if there is, I didn't get it (and, hey, even catalogues I DIDN'T want to move with me have found my new address--in less than six months--so I probably would have gotten the memo, too). (Unless I'm officially Off the List for some reason . . .)

User: jonquil Date: 15 Oct 2006 03:10 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Molly Saves The Day seems to me to be saying just that: "But Jill isn't talking about those times in her own personal actions. She's talking about complete bikini waxes, which don't figure into any non-sex worker jobs I'm aware of. She's talking about lip gloss, which I can't possibly see as a requirement. If she can't even bring herself to give up these expensive (and sometimes painful) cosmetic beauty rituals, how in the world can she expect other women -- who may be in a position where they are required to participate in beauty culture -- to rise up against it?"

User: bookmama29 Date: 15 Oct 2006 15:12 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I, too, stopped shaving years ago. It's a pain in the ass and not neccessary for me. I never plucked, makes my eyes water and I never got the hang of it. Don't wear makeup except for special occasions and never wear eye makeup. My eyes water too much and I end up wiping it off anyway. I don't consider myself brave, just interested in being comfortable. I never wear high heels; bad back + big feet= agony at the end of the day. I do get my hair dyed to cover the incoming gray hairs, and I have a good hairdresser. "Built for comfort, not for speed", that's me! However, my daughter, who was raised hearing about feminism and attends a very feminist, liberal college, does shave, pluck, wear makeup and heels, and is also comfortable. I agree that equality means being able to do whatever makes you happy and not for the enjoyment of others. If you are comfortable with yourself, you will come across as being beautiful anyway. JMHO.

User: canandagirl Date: 16 Oct 2006 02:20 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I like manicures too.

User: giandujakiss Date: 16 Oct 2006 10:17 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Frankly, I don't think the patriarchy makes you like sparkly toenails. I think the patriarchy prevents men from appreciating them. We should all have sparkly toenails.

User: circelily Date: 16 Oct 2006 14:28 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I'm with urban_homestead on this. I started shaving my legs after male acquaintances and cousins kept going on and on at me. And I shave underarms and wax facial hair for the same reason. But I often go a few weeks before I remember that the facial hair has to come off again.

My conclusions are in line with most people's on this thread though (ow, the splinters). It is a product of patriarchy, but not grounds for keeping people out of the feminist club. Cos I've always understood feminism to be first and foremost pluralist. Not a if-you-don't-follow-this-rule-you're-not-one-of-us club. I know there's a proper word for that, but it won't come to me ;-s